American Unitarian Conference Forum

From his blog "Ethical Monotheism" (http://ethicalmono.blogspot.com/)

The Trinity

If the Trinity is true, then:

1. The Father, being God, must be all of the Deity (not just a third); the Son, being God, must be all of the Deity (not just a third); and the Spirit, being God, must be all of the Deity (not just a third).

2. The Trinity as a composite unity must be an entity distinct from each Person within it. Therefore, the whole Trinity itself must be a fourth Person.

3. When praying and worshiping, we must address each member of the Trinity -- and the composite Trinity as well -- so as not to withhold reverence from each.

4. Jesus reconciled to humanity each member of the Trinity, including himself. He also must have reconciled the Trinity as a composite whole.

5. Jesus as the Son of God must be the Son of the Father, the Son of the Son and the Son of the Spirit -- as well as the Son of the whole Trinity.

6. The Father is our Father, the Son is our Father and the Spirit is our Father and the whole Trinity is our Father.

7. Nature does not reveal God because it does not reveal a Trinity or anything analogous to it.

8. Man, whose mind is wired for intelligible data, cannot even form a concept of God without imagining three Gods (and a fourth made up of the three Persons). He must rely on theological language that contradicts the processes of his own mind and has no rational correspondence to our reality.

9. We must define "Person" as something other than a distinct being with a distinct mind and will -- even though the Persons of the Trinity are supposed to have distinct minds and wills.

10. We must confess that even though the divine Persons love one another and have fellowship, they are not separate beings at all.

Ahh...the various mental contortions that it takes to try and divide the experience of God into bite sized pieces. Only by insisting on Jesus as being a divine being and God's ongoing activity in the world (Holy Spirit) a seperate "person" do these gymnastics take place.

Just to illustrate..a quick Google search on Holy Spirit....result #1:

http://everystudent.com/forum/hspirit.ht...WAodRUFKAQ

Who is the Holy Spirit?

Q: "Who or what is the Holy Spirit? I've seen this name/phrase on your site in a few places."

our A: The Holy Spirit is a real person who came to reside within Jesus Christ's true followers after Jesus rose from the dead and ascended to heaven (Acts 2). Jesus told His apostles...

"I will ask the Father, and He will give you another Helper, that He may be with you forever; the Spirit of truth, whom the world cannot receive, because it does not behold Him or know Him, but you know Him because He abides with you, and will be in you. I will not leave you as orphans; I will come to you." (John 14:16-18)

>> Jesus has to ask himself (God)...to bring forth version of himself....(God).

The Holy Spirit is not a vague, ethereal shadow, nor an impersonal force. He is a person equal in every way with God the Father and God the Son. He is considered to be the third member of the Godhead. Jesus said to His apostles...

"All authority has been given to Me in heaven and on earth. Go therefore and make disciples of all the nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and the Son and the Holy Spirit, teaching them to observe all that I commanded you; and lo, I am with you always, even to the end of the age." (Matt. 28:18-20)

>This verse does not explain the Holy Spirit.
>> Godhead - From Wikipedia..one definition that applies as the disciples were Jews:
In Judaism, the term "Godhead" is sometimes used to refer to the unknowable aspect of God which lies beyond His actions or emanations (as it were).
The mysterious 4th person Steve talks about?

God is Father, Son and Holy Spirit. And all the divine attributes ascribed to the Father and the Son are equally ascribed to the Holy Spirit. When a person becomes born again by believing and receiving Jesus Christ (John 1:12-13; John 3:3-21), God resides in that person through the Holy Spirit (1Cor. 3:16). The Holy Spirit has intellect (1Cor. 2:11), emotion (Rom. 15:30), and will (1Cor. 12:11).

>> "God" is a distinct person from Jesus Christ in this passage...hmmm
>> God is absent from us unless we "receive" Jesus Christ as the Holy Spirit will not dwell in us...interesting. So prior to Jesus...God did not dwell in anyone. No holy men, Moses, etc.
>> The Holy Spirit has intellect..emotion...will....> all separate from the Father and the Son? A separate Will? How can that be? Intellect?...of different quality than the Father / Son? Emotion? Again, not linked to the other two members? This is starting to sound like a description of multiple personality disorder.

A primary role of the Holy Spirit is that He bears "witness" of Jesus Christ (John 15:26, 16:14). He tells people's hearts about the truth of Jesus Christ. The Holy Spirit also acts as a Christian's teacher (1Cor. 2:9-14). He reveals God's will and God's truth to a Christian. Jesus told His disciples...

>> A messenger separate from "God"? Why the necessity of division into persons? Can't God just be credited with acting on our hearts without dividing into a new entity?

"The Helper, the Holy Spirit, whom the Father will send in My name, He will teach you all things, and bring to your remembrance all that I said to you." (John 14:26)

"When He, the Spirit of truth, comes, He will guide you into all the truth; for He will not speak on His own initiative, but whatever He hears, He will speak; and He will disclose to you what is to come." (John 16:13)

>> Will not speak on his own....just repeat what He hears? What? But then again, discloses what is to come? This is a contradiction....unless this person of the trinity has less knowledge than...the Father / Son? But we are talking One God...this makes no sense.

The Holy Spirit was given to live inside those who believe in Jesus, in order to produce God's character in the life of a believer. In a way that we cannot do on our own, the Holy Spirit will build into our lives love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, gentleness and self-control (Gal. 5:22-23). Rather than trying to be loving, patient, kind, God asks us to rely on Him to produce these qualities in our lives. Thus Christians are told to walk in the Spirit (Gal. 5:25) and be filled with the Spirit (Eph. 5:18). And the Holy Spirit empowers Christians to perform ministerial duties that promote spiritual growth among Christians (Rom. 12; 1Cor. 12; Eph. 4).

>> So if you "believe in Jesus" no action is required....the Holy Spirit will fill you with love, patience, kindness.....I guess very few people believe in Jesus.
>> The Holy Spirit "empowers" ministerial duties? How?

The Holy Spirit also performs a function for non-Christians as well. He convicts people's hearts of God's truth concerning how sinful we are -- needing God's forgiveness; how righteous Jesus is -- He died in our place, for our sins; and God's eventual judgment of the world and those who do not know Him (John 16:8-11). The Holy Spirit tugs on our hearts and minds, asking us to repent and turn to God for forgiveness and a new life.

>> Again, the Holy Spirit is viewed as separate from "God"...

God, if you reside as a trinity, forgive me for not understanding...Amen.

Well, for that you can expect a WARM welcome!

But it is good to see that you do have a sense of humor. And a very good one at that.

"When the Father, Son and Spirit go out to dinner do they make reservations for 3 and sign separately, or reserve and sign together?"

Usually the Spirit signs, through the Father and the Son (unless eating at an Eastern Orthodox restaurant, in which case the Spririt signs through the Father alone).

I found this one:

http://www.munachi.com/a/atrnty.html
Homily for Trinity Sunday

"Trinity Joke

Jesus said, Whom do men say that I am?

And his disciples answered and said, Some say you are John the Baptist returned from the dead; others say Elias, or other of the old prophets.

And Jesus answered and said, But whom do you say that I am?

Peter answered and said, "Thou art the Logos, existing in the Father as His rationality and then, by an act of His will, being generated, in consideration of the various functions by which God is related to his creation, but only on the fact that Scripture speaks of a Father, and a Son, and a Holy Spirit, each member of the Trinity being coequal with every other member, and each acting inseparably with and interpenetrating every other member, with only an economic subordination within God, but causing no division which would make the substance no longer simple."

And Jesus answering, said, "What?"

From the above sermon by Munachi Ezeogu:

"Like Augustine we may not be able to understand the how of the Trinity but I think it is very important to understand the why. Why did God reveal to us this mystery regarding the very nature of the Supreme Being? The importance of this doctrine lies in this: we are made in the image of God, therefore, the more we understand God the more we can understand ourselves. Experts in religion tell us that people always try to be like the God they worship. People who worship a warrior God tend to be warriors, people who worship a God of pleasure tend to be pleasure-seeking, people who worship a God of wrath tend to be angry people, etc. Like a God, like the worshipers. So the more important question for us to ask today is: What does the doctrine of the Blessed Trinity tell us about the kind of God we worship and what does this say about the kind of people we should be? And here I have two points to share with you.

1. God does not exist in isolated individualism but in a community of relationships. In other words, God is not a loner or a recluse. This means that a Christian in search of Godliness (Matthew 5:48) must shun every tendency to isolationism and individualism. The ideal Christian spirituality is not that of flight from the world like that of certain Buddhist monastic traditions where the quest for holiness means withdrawal to the Himalayas away from contact with other people and society.

2. True love requires three partners. You remember the old saying "Two is company, three is a crowd." The Trinity shows us that three is community, three is love at its best; three is not a crowd. Taking an example from the human condition we see that when a man A is in love he looks for a woman B so that together they can produce a baby C. Father, mother and child — love when it becomes complete becomes a trinity. Over and above that, each one of us becomes fully human only when we are in relationship with God and in relationship with others. In that way our life becomes Trinitarian like that of God. Then we discover that the I-and-I principle preached by Bob Marley and practised by the society at large leaves much to be desired. The doctrine of the Blessed Trinity challenges us to adopt rather an I-and-God-and-neighbour principle. I am a Christian insofar as I live in a relationship of love with God and other people. May the grace of the Holy Trinity help us to banish all traces of selfishness in our lives and to live in love of God and of neighbour."

>> So a man and his wife (partner) cannot express full love without children?
The concept of "I-and-God-and-neighbour principle" does not require the trinitarian concept of God.

“The ideal Christian spirituality is not that of flight from the world like that of certain Buddhist monastic traditions…”

Or say, the Desert Fathers 

“True love requires three partners.”

I saw a documentary on that last night (no seriously). Not for me though 

I’ve never heard an explanation of the Trinity that didn’t either 1. resort to “it’s a mystery” and we should just accept it as true or 2. descend into classic “heresies” like modalism (which the person trying to defend the Trinity often doesn’t even know he is espousing heresy). One also has to wonder that if the Trinity is the full explination of the nature of the Supreme Being, then what in the world can we make of the strict monotheism of Judaism, the mother of Christianity? Do Jews, Muslims, Zoroastrians, Deists, Unitarians, Sikhs, Bahais, et al have no relationship with God? Again I never have heard a straight answer on that one.

I like the way a British journalist once put it-the explanations of the Trinity are like saying 1+1=ice cream.

But if belief in the Tri-unity of God works for some people, then I wish them well; after all, we believe that God’s presence is made known in a myriad of ways.

On the extreme other flank of the debate, there is quite a bit of heat between Apostolic Oneness Pentecostals and trinitarians...this Beliefnet
reply gives a sample of the flavor:

http://www.beliefnet.com/boards/message_...per_page=4

"To respond also to your original question, about trinitarians being saved... Well, you have to understand their doctrines more fully that makeup trinitarianism, for example, eternal Sonship, the incarnation of this "Son" of GOD and not the ACTUAL GOD being present in the body of Christ, ect. ect... These things ought to be enough to tell you that oneness Pentecostals and Baptists are not merely arguing over semantics, but that these are real issues that need to be addressed. JESUS said, "Except you believe that I am HE, you'll die in your sins" (paraphrased), "HE" meant the Father, you must believe the Mighty GOD, the Father of Creation was IN Christ, NOT that some second eternal person or "son" was in Christ or incarnated to make Christ, but that the very GOD of the Universe was incarnate in Christ! Without this, JESUS' words (not even JESUS Himself, but the very words HE spoke) condemn you. Please, please do not be lost, turn yourself back unto HIS Church. Don't waste your time going "But, but, how can all these be lost?" GOD will work it out and HE is just, can some trinitarians, who were in darkness their whole life, maybe could never read or own a Bible, like all the people who lived in the Middle Ages, and were peasants and Catholics, can they be saved? Maybe... But can you or me, or Billy Graham for that matter, who have all had the Word of GOD in our possession, held it under our arm, week after week, with it's Apostolic message of salvation be saved if we reject HIS message, and go awhoring after the Baptists or Methodists or Presbyterians, ABSOLUTELY NOT! May the LORD help you."
GOD BLESS!
Bro. Alex
___________________________________________
God bless indeed...may the Lord help us all!

I wonder if people see the similarities between that view of God and say, Castro or Ayatollah Khomeini. If you don't believe the right belief (vote the right way/support the revolution) then you will go to hell (prison).