American Unitarian Conference Forum

While updating our web site it occurred to me that I was remiss in fully explaining the meaning of our congregation's name. The "Restoration" aspect also has to do with restoring the Hebrew context of Christianity, in contrast to the assimilated Western "corruption". (ie.Trinity) This was a major focus of our early studies. It kind of got lost in our recent struggle to preserve our group. I want to get back to it though. If you had visited our site at the right time you may have seen references to it. In pictures I wore a folded Tallit, rather than a stole, in formal services.

Restoration goes along with with good ole' Unitarian reason. We see Yeshua urging a temperate and reasonable approach to scripture and tradition. He is lax, for a Jew. His message being' "Lets do whats important and maybe not trouble too much over the little things". Very "Unitarian" in its logic.

Is anyone here interested in restoration?

One approach re "restoration" would be if Unitarians aligned themselves within the Noahide Laws / tradition and associated with Judaism as Gentile God fearers.  I would be interested in your take on restoration.

However, I think most modern Unitarians would not want to be limited to those expressions.  I think most would say yes to honoring them and keeping those elements that speak to us today...but always looking to add truth as spirit unfolds.  There are some elements of the Noahide interpretation that can cause problems...it depends on the organization doing the interpreting.  I do think that this is fertile ground for both Jews and Unitarians.  We do share quite a bit..and more could be done to strengthen those ties.

I'm satisfied with being just a generic Unitarian

Kenn, I see the Noahide comment struck an unintended nerve....not being an expert, but somewhat familiar with the proposition..the Laws of Noah for gentiles, it did not seem totally out place as a bridge between Judaism and Unitarianism.  Some Qs for clarification:
> Why would Noahidists be incompatible but not Judaism?  Both "reject" Jesus as the messiah / savior?  
> Are you considering (seeking) Unitarianism as equivalent to early Christianity?  Basically, a form of Jews for Jesus?
> What office does Jesus hold in your view?  Human?  Divine?  Messiah?
> Jews look upon their role as a divine commandment..God's people instructed to be a beacon....not because they consider themselves more righteous (in theory..not the individual).  Gentiles...those under the Noahide Laws are not required to live by the same stringent Laws....do Restoration Unitarians seek to live under the Law?  Dietary laws, circumcision, etc. etc....i.e. equivalent to the Jerusalem Church?  
>  "It offers admittance into the "New Kingdom" but not into Israel itself; and when you get there you can expect a segregated caste system to keep you in your place for eternity."
Do you envision an actual future earthly New Kingdom?
Is Jesus to be the New King...in a second coming?
"Not in Isreal itself"....do you mean a geographic Israel with Jerusalem as the Holy City or the nation of Israel....God's people?  Do you conceive of a "New Kingdom" that could allow a caste system?
> Why wouldn't all gentiles be considered Noahides from a Jewish perspective?  Yes, it is a category of people...based on different requirements of the Law...but those Laws..derive from Judaism do they not?

It is not my point to suggest that Unitarians declare themselves Noahides...just that our monotheistic beliefs are in many ways compatible with some Jewish thinking and that the concept of Noahide offered a way to relate the Jews and Gentiles without having Jesus as the great divider.

P.S. I found this site...it seems to reflect some of your concerns with the whole Noahide movement as well..agree?

http://www.watch.pair.com/law.html

"I need to disagree with your assertion that Unitarians can "follow" the Noachide laws. That is theologically impossible. Christianity is not compatible with Noachide theology because the Noachide concept entirely rejects Jesus. Period."

While I too don't care for the Noahide idea, since not all (AUC) Unitarians are Christian it is still conceivable that a Unitarian could follow the Noahide laws. I can't imagine why, but that is not my decision. I personally find so much richness in our own Unitarian tradition.

Wow! A lot to ponder here....it is a bit confusing...but interesting all the same.
Hope you had a nice Thanksgiving.

I too hope both of you had a wonderful Thanksgiving.

Ken,

"AUC is self-defined as Christian Unitarian organization."

Actually the AUC is not an explicitly Christian Unitarian organization; it is an explicitly (mono)theistic Unitarian organization which is inclusive of Unitarian Christians as well as Unitarians who are not Christians.

Gitty up horsey..

"I do not see how Noachide believers come to be."

Might be answered below:

http://www.jewfaq.org/moshiach.htm#Age

Messianic Age

"In the Olam Ha-Ba, the whole world will recognize the Jewish G-d as the only true G-d, and the Jewish religion as the only true religion (Isaiah 2:3; 11:10; Micah 4:2-3; Zechariah 14:9). There will be no murder, robbery, competition or jealousy. There will be no sin (Zephaniah 3:13). Sacrifices will continue to be brought in the Temple, but these will be limited to thanksgiving offerings, because there will be no further need for expiatory offerings."

Therefore, the One God in Judaism is The One God of all....that is why Noachides would come to be...they accept belief in Yahweh as the One God.

I am not claiming a desire to be Noahide...again...the concept was interesting as to how Gentiles (Unitarians - fellow monotheists etc.) can relate to Jews...as discussed on a previous thread...the 7 Laws as laid out are fairly innocuous...other than 1 or 2 that cause concern.  

Well, this has been interesting and informative.

Hi Kenn...thank you for your insight into this movement. Maybe you could bounce your concerns off one of the Noahide groups and see what kind of response you get..then let us know? Would be interesting to see the dialogue.

Hi Kenn...it was never my intention to suggest that all Unitarians accept Noahidism..I thought of it when you use the term "restoration"..thinking it referred to an effort to bring Unitarian monotheism back to its roots and in relationship with Judaism..based on some of your practices / dress etc. From your prior posts I see that was not you intention. However..when I first discovered the site:
http://www.noahide.org/index.asp?Level=88&Parent=0

I was curious as to the general outreach tone from this movement and upon reading the selections:

http://www.noahide.org/index.asp?Level=88&Parent=0

I came away with a feeling that despite our differences / views of the Torah etc....much of their philosophy is pretty progressive. Such as this statement:
http://www.noahide.org/article.asp?Level=506&Parent=88
Jewish Fundamentalism?
By Rabbi Aron Moss

"For this reason, Judaism can never tolerate fundamentalism. Quite simply, we don't believe that Judaism is for everyone. Jewish thought is comfortable with the belief that there are many paths to G-d; Judaism is the path for Jews, and non-Jews can find Him in different ways. They can live a moral and good life without keeping the laws or sharing the beliefs of Judaism. Anyone can join Judaism by converting, but this is not necessary - a non-Jew can be fulfilled, close to G-d, and earn a place in heaven without becoming Jewish. I think it is this universalistic approach that has saved Judaism from the plague of fundamentalism."

Another interesting article, which discusses the pros and cons:

http://www.noahide.org/article.asp?Level=493&Parent=88
The Seven Laws of Noah and the Non-Jews who Follow Them
By Michael Kress

"But for most Noahides the decision not to convert boils down to the fact that they find spiritual fulfillment in what they view as their role in the divine plan for the world: To follow the lead of the Jewish people—not become them. “Israel was chosen to be a nation of kings and priests and a light unto the nations,” Pam Rogers explains. “We decided if everybody converted, who would Israel have to be priests to?”
They believe that they can have a greater impact as non-Jews following the Torah than as Jewish converts, both by encouraging other non-Jews to live according to Noah’s laws and by calling upon Jews to observe their own traditions. “If I just converted and went out to the non-Jewish world talking about the Torah and the prophets and how great it was, then I’d just be another Jew running my mouth,” says Jack Saunders.


To those who take the long view of Jewish history, like University of Toronto professor Novak, the Noahide movement is destined to peter out, as did the Second Temple-era God Fearers. Eventually, Novak reasons, Noahides will return to their original faiths or convert to Judaism. “If you want rabbis to tell you what to do, why not convert to Judaism?” he asks. “It’s an untenable situation.”

I agree, their effort is to hasten the coming of the Messiah....and I realize this is not part of Unitarian thought...however, setting that aside...it seems like there are some interesting topics and discussions that relate to monotheism in general. I offered it up just as a conversation piece....I think I succeeded too well!