American Unitarian Conference Forum

I'm no fan of any of the Noachide organizations or the concept itself. Both highly questionable.

I need to disagree with your assertion that Unitarians can "follow" the Noachide laws. That is theologically impossible. Christianity is not compatible with Noachide theology because the Noachide concept entirely rejects Jesus. Period.

Restorationism is based on the idea that Jesus was a Jew and that early Christianity was a form of Judaism. If we want to know and understand what Jesus said and taught, we need to view it in the proper context. It seeks to return Christianity to its cultural and theological roots and resists Hellenisim.

Further, through Yeshua, and the Apostles, Gentiles were adopted into the nation of Israel and the lineage of Abraham. This is incompatible with Noachides, who systematically separate Jews and Gentiles.

Restoration tries to interpret the first generation (Not Century) of Christianity which existed within the context of Jewish culture before Paul set out to take it to the world.

All this has nothing to do with the Noachide movement which was recently started by a radical Rabbi as a way to resist the Messianic movement and to expand the finantial coffers of his particular branch of Judaism by accepting Gentile participation and support. The whole thing is simply historically and theologically incorrect.

Heres a good link on restorationism.

http://www.restorationfoundation.org/

I agree.

For me, Unitarianism is just that. Generic. And as such, it allows for great personal freedoms.

Getting into the "nitty-gritty" of history and theology is a way to know Yeshua and Christianity better. The fact that I'm a "Generic" Unitarian allows me to take that journey. In other denominations of Christianity such interests would be deemed immoral or heretical.


Kenn

Just to expand on this:

Restorationism asserts Christianity as the "new" Judaism. However, I personally reject the idea that Jews are expected to convert or accept Jesus.

If the new covenant brought Gentiles into Israel, why should we expect that the Jews, who were already there, should need to accept our ticket?

I wrote an article, which is now becoming a book, which demonstrates how Christianity and Judaism are compatible and that the covenants go hand-in hand to unite, not separate, Jews and Gentiles. And this does not require Jews to become Christians.

The Noachide movement tries to offer a third option by creatively interpreting scriptural observations. It offers admittance into the "New Kingdom" but not into Israel itself; and when you get there you can expect a segregated caste system to keep you in your place for eternity. Its not my idea of a happy ending.

"Noachides" are by definition, NOT part of the Jewish tradition. Like the term Gentile, It is a Jewish distinction for non-Jews.

To define oneself as Noachide is to try and define yourself by what you are not. This is like saying "Hello, I'm Kenn, and I'm not African American, Female, republican, reptilian, or a Mets fan.

Noachide is not a statement of ones own beliefs, it is a categorical context in which conservative Jews judge the "righteousness" of non Jews. It is not a cultural or religious society.

Kenn

That is a very good point that not all Unitarians are Christian. However, it is safe to assume because the AUC is self-defined as Christian Unitarian organization. Regardless, I will redirect my remarks just to include those who are indeed Christian.

I can see the UU as being a good place for the Noachide movement. On the other hand, it already has an "official" home with Chabad.

Kenn

No, not at all. I agree the words may sound sound somewhat irate, but they were not intended as such. It's just a topic on which I have some degree of interest so I spoke up. No hostility intended.

To answer your questions:

Why would Noahidists be incompatible but not Judaism? Both "reject" Jesus as the messiah / savior?

This is not entirely true. First, Messianic Judaism is a rapidly growing sect.

Second, there are some Christians who feel that Judaism and Christianity are intended to co-exist until the arrival of the "new kingdom".

Noachide theology is incompatible because what you have is a Gentile who rejects Jesus. So he is neither Jew, nor Christian. He could be Muslim, I guess, but would'nt he just say that?

So I ask, under what conditions or circumstances does one define ONESELF as Noachide?

If you look at the demographics, the movement consists mainly of former Christians and wanna-be Jews.

> Are you considering (seeking) Unitarianism as equivalent to early Christianity? Basically, a form of Jews for Jesus?

Nope. I'm fully aware of, and well educated in, the parameters of "American Unitarianism" and of Judaic Christianity. I don't confuse, nor seek to blur, the distinctions between the two. A portion of our Unitarian congregation is involved in restorative Christianity, but that is in no way incompatible with any form of Unitarianism.

> What office does Jesus hold in your view? Human? Divine? Messiah?

Well, thats kind of a tricky question to just blurt out in a few paragraphs aint it? Lets just say that I rejoice in the mystery and don't presume to know the absolute nature of the Divine. I pity those who think they have this all figured out. Life needs mystery and a sense of awe.

> Jews look upon their role as a divine commandment..God's people instructed to be a beacon....not because they consider themselves more righteous (in theory..not the individual). Gentiles...those under the Noahide Laws are not required to live by the same stringent Laws....do Restoration Unitarians seek to live under the Law? Dietary laws, circumcision, etc. etc....i.e. equivalent to the Jerusalem Church?

The overall restorative idea is that Yeshua "reformed" Jewish observance from "Mundane" (ritual) to that of Spirit. (God is Spirit and must be worshiped a such) They believe, as did Paul, that all who follow Yeshua are admitted into the "nation" of Israel. They ARE "adopted" Jews. (by God)

They are not expected to uphold all the laws of Sinai which pertain only to "Jews of the flesh".

Why? Because many of the positive Mizvot were either "reprimands" or "reminders" imposed on the Jews for disregarding the terms of the covenant or commandments.

Such "reminders" may not apply to Gentile Christians who were not present to receive them. And theologically, Yeshua changed the whole ballgame anyhow.

Further, when Yeshua demonstrated disregard for some of the more mundane Jewish laws, he suggested that worship in spirit took importance over mundane ritual. However, he also says that he does not intend to disregard Jewish law, but to "fulfill" it. In other words, Reform.

Many do practice all the Jewish High holidays, honor the shabbat, wear tzizit, etc, but are not bound to the specific rules which only apply to the descendants of Sinai. The idea is to live as Jesus lived, and this obviously allows for some interpretation of what he did and did not observe. But a great deal can be discerned from a thorough understanding of scripture.

In contrast, it is actually forbidden for Noachides to celebrate the high holidays or observe the sabbath in the fashion of the Jews. But "Yeshuans" ARE reformed Jews, so they may observe the appropriate mitzvot.

Do you envision an actual future earthly New Kingdom?

I'm pretty down to earth when it comes to these things. I see this as a symbolic "new Kingdom" of relative peace and brotherhood on earth brought about by our eventual "maturity" as a species and a homogenization of religious ideals. Yes, I think scripture could be prophetic of this scenario.

Is Jesus to be the New King...in a second coming?

Look, I'm pretty much a textbook Unitarian. I think this is all allegorical, but none the less true. I take the stand (at least presently) that the second coming is upon us as the "Christian era" itself. I would be shocked and surprised by an actual "second coming".

"Not in Israel itself"....do you mean a geographic Israel with Jerusalem as the Holy City or the nation of Israel....God's people?

The second.

Do you conceive of a "New Kingdom" that could allow a caste system?

No, but the conservative Jewish and Noachide theologies do.

> Why wouldn't all gentiles be considered Noahides from a Jewish perspective? They are. That was what I was trying to say. But keep in mind that Messianic Jews and Hebraic Christians do not consider themselves "Gentiles". They consider themselves Jews and have strong scriptural support for this position.

Finally, you mention "Jews for Jesus". JFJ is not to be confused with legitimate Messianic sects or Hebraic Christians. JFJ is a Denominationally Evangelical "organization" whose sole purpose is to convert Jews to "MAINSTREAM" Christianity. Its all in their mission statement.

I cant speak for all Messianic groups but ours is more interested in establishing harmony between Jews and Christians than anything else. We don't presume to preach Christ to Jews and it is sort of a hobby of ours to figure out how scripture supports both as "righteous" by God.

Fun topic isn't it?

Kenn

Thank you for clarifying that.

Hope everyone had a happy holiday!

To beat a dead horse:

I clipped this from another forum.

"I do not see how Noachide believers come to be. The "One God" in question is the One God of Abraham. How does a person who is not Jewish, Christian or Muslim come to worship a foreign god completely outside of the context of his natural religions?" My impression is that this is a distinctly Jewish solution to addressing the theological problem of Gentiles following the Messaih; a condition under which Jews would "accept" the presence of Gentiles in the new world."

"In the Olam Ha-Ba, the whole world will recognize the Jewish G-d as the only true G-d, and the Jewish religion as the only true religion (Isaiah 2:3; 11:10; Micah 4:2-3; Zechariah 14:9)......

I think this is what makes me subscribe to unitarian principles. There is something creepy in that quote. Reminds me of a favorite Start Trek phrase: "Resistance is futile".

I am equally uncomfortable with Christian rhetoric that tries to assimilate everyone into a single way of thinking.

However, I do understand that the wording is simply harsh (interpreted Literally) but it can be interpreted in a variety of ways.

Kenn

Geez, I really want to accept this idea. I pride myself on my tolarance. But something always turns my stomach when I read these Noachide sites. I cant put my finger on it. Does anyone else get that feeling?

I don't like that the page linked above jumps right into a derogatory statements about what they DONT believe instead of providing a more thorough description of what these people DO believe.

There seems to be an underlying hostility to all of the noachide sites I have visited, and some make no apologies for their open hostility.

Further, for such a small religious movement there is allot of dissent and anger between groups.

As a "Biblical Unitarian" I was naturally drawn to the Noachide movement many years ago but was immediately repulsed. I thought maybe I had misinterpreted what I had seen. So I gave it another look. Its just making me feel uneasy.

Note this: In the Olam Ha-Ba, the whole world will recognize the Jewish G-d as the only true G-d, and the Jewish religion as the only true religion (Isaiah 2:3; 11:10; Micah 4:2-3; Zechariah 14:9).

OK, so shouldn't Gentiles simply become Jews if, in the end , thats what is supposed to happen?

But thats NOT what the Noachide movement is saying. In fact it, contradicts itself.

I find it odd that the "believers" talk about themselves in the third party, (gentiles), and the systematic "segregation" is unnerving.

I get the feeling this whole thing is made up of scraps left over from midrash. Which is a questionable practice at best.

I did not mean to turn this into a rant. I value the wisdom and diversity of my AUC brethren and hope someone can help me explore this subject.

I feel it my duty to try and understand it as a pastor, chaplain and leader.

Kenn

Ok, Ok, I guess I did not choose my words carefully enough the first time because my post was promptly deleted by the powers that be. So I will try and redeem myself by trying again. I do want to say, to anyone who read the previous post before it was deleted, I was writing out of shock from the reply I received from two of the communities in question.

That said, i will try to offer a helpful overview of what I have discovered.

First, the movement represents a very small portion of the semi-orthodox Jewish community. Of them, only the extreme fundamentalists have any regard for the concept of the Noachide nation. The purpose, as they see it, is to fulfill biblical prophesy by bringing all nations to the God of Israel. This, they believe, will initiate the coming of Messaih and the "new world".

This is ironically similar to Fundamental Christians who think that converting the Jews to Christianity will bring back the Savior and initiate the "new kingdom".

Most Jews, particularly reformed, liberal and Progressive, have no concept of the need for "Noachide nations" because they don't take biblical prophecy so literally. These Jews would rather Gentiles convert to Judaism altogether because this strengthens the faith in a real and practical way.

Whereas, the primary group which supports the noachide movement (Chabad) is extremely adverse to full conversion. This is because of their theological belief in "wrapping things up". They don't want MORE Jews, they want the Messiah. More Jews won't help. They believe that only by bringing all Gentiles to their God and returning hereditary Jews to observance, they will usher in the new world. Its all a matter of urgency.

Finally, it should be noted that the whole idea was initiated by a single Rabbi and is now organized by splinter groups (not the orthodoxy) of his original followers. So the movement is far from universally accepted.

None of this, however, answers my initial question. What does the whole concept of "Noachide" have to offer its followers"? Why do people feel they fit into this niche? It was a fair and honest question.

I hope this is a balanced enough report to avoid deletion.

Shalom.