I dunno, I don't think having a central person to rally around will help. Full civil rights for glbt Americans I think will continue to materialize slowly and somewhat quietly. There was a slate of states who recognized marriage equality in this decade, much to the chagrin of those opposed to it. Personally I want our culture to recognize the dignity and value of the human individual, and that therefore freedom must be protected for all regardless of secondary classification (race, gender, sexuality, etc.).
ps-i'm on pain meds for my back today, so if i'm rambling please excuse me
Hello Grey,
"Homosexuality is a serious sin and the Bible says they will not enter the Kingdom."
What is the rating scale for sin in the Bible? Is homosexuality an 8 on a 10 point scale? And what specifically is the sin-orientation or activity? Which activities specifically? Where is the Kingdom, and what verse say specifically that "they" won't enter it?
"To show true love we must not simply say hey your ok I am ok. We are not OK none of us."
Aside from wrenching my back, I'm OK. This is a Unitarian forum, Unitarians believe in the innate human potential for good, we do not believe in "original sin."
"We must warn these brothers and sisters of the cliff they are walking toward, that would be the true loving thing to do."
What other sins warrant such a warning? How will we have time for anything else in life if we have to follow everyone around and warn them of their sins?
"Indeed it may seem harsh but this is exactly what the word of God says."
Two problems with that statement: firstly, it assumes that the Bible (and who knows which version and translation you refer to) is a divine message from God, and secondly, one cannot pick out homosexuality and ignore similar taboos against menstruating women, clothing of mixed fiber, eating crustaceans, etc.
Unitarianism asks us to use our God-given reason when approaching anything, including the Bible and other scriptures. It is unreasonable, in light of modern knowledge, to pay such attention to one ancient Hebrew taboo and ignore the rest. Moreover, in a world where people are still killing each other over sectarian/tribal differences I cannot imagine that God is so interested in consensual adult sex.
"1Cr 6:9 Do you not know that the wicked will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived: Neither the sexually immoral nor idolaters nor adulterers nor male prostitutes nor homosexual offenders"
Well "sexually immoral" is ambiguous-is masturbation included? Is sex before marriage forbidden? If divorced persons remarry, are they adulterers?
Surely you know that the rest of that passage uses Greek terms that have nothing to do with consensual adult sexual acts.
"1Cr 6:10 nor thieves nor the greedy nor drunkards nor slanderers nor swindlers will inherit the kingdom of God."
So is it your contention that no one can get "in?" I mean if you get drunk and then hit by a bus before you are able to repent, are you done for?
"It also makes no difference which translation you read they all contain this verse and give the same warning."
You are basing your faith and your claims on the premise that the Bible is the word of God. Yet the Bible comes in many flavors, some with more books than others. Whether they all contain that verse or not is not the point; it is the validity of the claim that the Bible is authoritative over our lives that is questioned.
Contrast this to the US Constitution being the supreme law of the land. It is singular in version; there is not a Constitution used by some Federal agencies with 11 amendments, and another used by others with 32, etc.
"Should a homosexual repent of his lifestyle"
What is that lifestyle exacty?
"God stands for family values"
Such as Deuteronomy 20:10-14? Or Exodus 21:7-11? Psalms 137:9? How do these passages reflect God's alleged attempt to regulate the lives of the ancient Hebrews so they are always mindful of him? These are not the ideas of an intelligent Supreme Being, they are the rantings of a mad and evil mind, and I personally cannot insult my Creator by attributing them to him.
"And I would have to disagree on your point the rest of this passage has nothing to do with consentual acts."
You don't think there's a difference between boys forced into temple prostitution, men soliciting those prostitutes, and an adult gay couple in love in 2008?
Actually I don't believe in any future utopia to be put in place by God, but rather I believe we are called here and now to use our hands, our minds and hearts to heal the pain in the world which we have created. Homosexuality as such doesn't really play into this view one way or the other, except in instances where people have been harmed for being gay. Otherwise, I must agree with Micah who reminds us: 8. He [God] has told you, O man, what is good, and what the Lord demands of you; but to do justice, to love loving-kindness, and to walk discreetly with your God.
"Well then there is not much to look forward to if this is all there will ever be."
Can you make a tree? Can you make the sun set? Our world is a blessing; human ethical choices are controlled by free will-that is the goal of religion, to guide us in using that free will.
"Mankind has been trying to put things right for thousands of years, we have completely failed at this."
I don't think we've tried much at all. We've barely tapped our potential.
"If mankind would truly live by the word of God this world would be a peacefull place."
Again I refer you to the passages from God's "word" which call for bashing in baby brains and raping and pillaging. How is this better than our current world?
"I cannot help but think of the Catholic church of the middle ages, and the Muslim extremists of today."
Don't forget the Calvinists and other Protestants who were just as rabid in their bid for power....
Grey, in many ways your view is similar to the Jehovah's Witnesses...who also are somewhat Unitarian in theology. I understand your desire to have an original, early church kind of faith....there are good qualities to that approach. However, I would not want to live in a 1st century mindset....holy books are products of the people and culture that wrote them....any divine insight is filtered through those lenses...often poorly revealed.
All of us become locked into certain world views...it is inevitable....however, those world views are not be entirely sufficient or developed to account for all of reality. I seek the God above all human description and history....that is too small and flawed. I seek a God who is the creator and sustainer of the universe. I seek a vision of God that is "integral"...one that recognizes the past, builds upon it by keeping the best, and seeks greater understanding...knowing that all efforts are doomed to fail. How can one accept the Old Testament as the Word of God yet reject most of it and claim to follow a New Testament? If one really tried to live a completely biblical life you would not be too far off from the Taliban in mindset. Stoning of what we consider petty crimes today etc etc. This is not to say that there is not great beauty and wisdom in the Bible...but you do have to view it in historical context. I hope mankind has grown somewhat better....not just in killing.
As Rev. Dorris has said many times...if we concentrated on the two main commandments expounded by Jesus we would all be better off.....God will deal with us all in the end...be it a passage into night or an experience of universal mind and light.
On the basis of a recommended book...see the Books Read thread...this online
book may help in Bible interpretation consistent with some forms of Unitarian theology...see Chapter 2:
Common Sense Christianity by C. Randolph Ross
http://www.religion-online.org/showchapt...145&C=2627
I have only skimmed a couple of the chapters...
Starcomet....surely you jest? If not......I hope you are getting effective therapy!
"Paraphilia: One of several complex psychiatric disorders that are manifested as deviant sexual behavior. For example, in men the most common forms are pedophilia (sexual behavior or attraction toward children) and exhibitionism (exposing one's body in public setting). Other paraphilias include compulsive sexual behavior (nymphomania and priapism), sadism, masochism, fetishism, bestiality, and necrophilia. Treatment may include cognitive behavioral therapy, psychotherapy, behavior modification, antidepressant medications, and medications that alter hormone production, particularly of testosterone. However, the cause and treatment of paraphilias are poorly understood, and treatment is rarely effective. In addition, many professionals prefer not to pathologize sexual behavior that involves only willing adults, even if the behavior might be deemed deviant in mainstream society. In cases where the behavior is potentially criminal, as in pedophilia, treatment is usually offered within the penal system."
Good...too much information!