American Unitarian Conference Forum

Catholics insist repeatedly that they "do not worship Mary, they venerate her", but prayers like these certainly seem to fit the definition of "worship" as I understand it. It appears to be an attempt to have things both ways.

For all intents and purposes I think Mary represents the feminine face of God to Catholics...the majority of them just don't realize it.

I still do not know why we accuse them of worshipping saints and stuff. It is nothing but veneration, which is not the same as worship. Like I venerate my ancestors, but I in NO way worship them. And the prayers are not meant for Mary or the saints, they merely take it to God for them as they believe in intercession of the saints.

That may be how it is in theory, but if it looks, sounds and smells like worship, its more than a little easy for the 'accusation' to be made. Catholicism (and orthodoxy in general) does not seem to realize that intellectual concepts cannot displace reality...you can say something is one and yet three, but it doesn't mean that people will believe it, nor does it make the claim at hand true (most Christians today don't really believe in the Trinity doctrine as such, because it is completely unintelligible-most are heretics (modalists particularly) and don't even know it). In the same vein you can differentiate between worship and veneration on an intellectual level if you so choose, but it can't change the fact that a lot of what is going is basically worship.

In the minds of most Catholics (those who don't engage in the games theology uses to mutilate reason and twist the mind into accepting unintelligible concepts because they are "mysteries") people do not differentiate between the technical distinctions Rome has established-hence there is still a lot of superstition left in the RCC, along with a use of reason which I consider to be bastardized at best.

That said I really have no problem with the prayers to the saints or veneration of Mary at all, but I wish the RCC would be willing to be a bit more honest about what is going on. As it is I am thankful to belong to a religion that understands that real reason is not a matter of trying to persuade the mind to work against itself-which seems to be the primary objective of traditional theology.

I agree that now it mostly looks like a form of wroship, but there are many Catholics I know who do not worship any saints or Mary and they stand by that. Although I agree it seems like the Roman Catholicism and Eastern Orthodoxy are beginning to put the saints on the same platform as God. I also agree that they are very mystical and try to combine mysiticisim with reason and logic, which cannot go hand in hand in my opinion. But many Christians today still believe in the trinity, but I think more Christians (at least the young/post Christians) are beginning to question it and become confuse about how you can have one being that three at the sametime. I know I was confused about it when I was young. Which is what has helped me to become a Unitarian Chirstian today.

I don't think reason and mysticism are mutually exclusive, I just feel they are needed to temper one another (Unitarianism has a rather rich history of mysticism itself, in the Transcendentalist movement). Unitarianism I also found to embody the "hard" side of liberal religion (placing an emphasis on reason/logic-head-centered, ethics, tolerance and the like), where Universalism was more about the soft-side (in other words, love, mysticism, compassion, etc). I consider myself to be both, so I don't see anything that makes the two polar opposites.

By beef with the RCC is that the RCC insists that reason, mysticism and anything else are only 'true' if they are in-line with the Church's teachings (which strikes me as being a load of you-know-what).

As far as the Trinity I find this article from the CUA most accurately describes my views on God: http://www.christianuniversalist.org/art...hrist.html, as well as this one from the AUC: http://www.americanunitarian.org/sunderl...nation.htm

Oh do not get me wrong I have nothing against mysticisim (I like to indulge into some mystical things and I always like the mystical ceremonies and rituals of religions.). I like Universalism aslo, as I am a big believer in Universal Salvation and Religious pluralism.

Fascinating site...thanks for sending. I find their concept of a rational-mysticism fascinating...