To Stay or go? I, for one, choose to stay. For reasons explained in my “introduce yourself” post, I am quite content to remain in the Methodist church, despite the fact that I, as a Unitarian, disagree with virtually every major doctrine on which Orthodox Christianity stands. Leaving a church over mere doctrinal issues (i.e., the doctrines of men), is like throwing the proverbial baby out with the bath water. This is a major reason why there are literally thousands of different denominations and sects within Christianity; all believing they are just a cut above everyone else, and, with all due respect and admiration, the Unitarian tradition is no exception. In my experience, these orthodox Christian doctrines, while talked about, touched upon, and sometimes skirted around, are not what is normally preached from the pulpit. For the most part, what is preached is the same simple religion that Jesus preached: Love God and your fellow man. Repent and know that the Kingdom is within. God loves you, God loves me, God loves us all equally. In any harvest, you must separate the wheat from the chaff. It is true, as you say, the church is not obligated to adopt my beliefs. I ask you, why would you ever expect the church, any church, to adopt your beliefs? There are as many belief systems in the world as there are people. But there is only one true religion, and it goes by no name, for it is universal. Jesus revealed this religion to me; not because he just believed in it, for that would be mere theology, but because he lived it; day in, day out, all the days of his life. -Ed
I often have the impression that Spong is a practical atheist and that his God sounds more and more like no god at all. I can empathize a lot with those who think that he should leave the Anglican communion. Of course, on some issues, much of the ECUSA is becoming increasingly Spongian.
John
I've always thought that too. I like Spong in that he presents very well thought-out challenges to problems with traditional images of God but I don't like the conclusions he draws. His talent IMO is in asking good questions and pointing out problems that orthodoxy tries to ignore. Unfortunately he seems unwilling to consider the possibility that there may still be a personal element to the Creator.
I think Borg is somewhat better but again....I may not agree with everything he says.
In general I think Borg is very good-Borg at least is willing to focus more on the God question and acknowledges that there is still a personal element to God. My primary disagreement with Borg lies more with his focus on social justice in the Bible-while I don't disagree that it is there I think that Borg (along with many liberal Christians) tend to exxagerate it a bit. Borg at least speaks of the need for a focus on both personal AND societal transformation.
I would add when it comes to staying or leaving that I think there is a difference between being an ordinary 'lay' member of a church and taking a position of leadership. In a leadership position I think there is a greater responsibility in upholding the creed-particularly if you are a bishop. There is a lot of good in the traditional church-my beef is not with the liturgy, worship, sacraments or other practices-it is doctrine related. For many Christians this isn't an issue (for others, however, it is all too important).
Right now actually that's more or less what I do...granted my church was already tossed out of the establishment, but hey. If I lived elsewhere I would probably be a member of the Episcopal Church-maybe a UU congregation, if it wasn't too liberal.
Like I said earlier, I believe that lay members can certainly participate in the community...it's the leaders I tend to think have somewhat of a responsibility not to deliberately finger the eye of the authority.
I am more attracted to churches that don't attempt to ram creeds down their members throats...fortunately I have yet to find one like that. For me it's a matter of how comfortable and spiritually aware I am in the church.
I am surprised by the Mormons...but pleasantly so. Sounds like you have a good arrangement.
Euronen,
I simply try not to confuse theology with religion. The two are integrally related, the former being a part of the latter, but they are not necessarily dependent on one another, and most certainly are not one and the same. The one is a way of thinking or believing, the other a way of living. I think the apostle James, in explaining the difference between faith and works, was referring to this when he said, “Thou believest that God is one; thou doest well: the demons also believe, and shudder.”
As to the sacraments/rituals I participate in, there is only one that might call my intellectual honesty into question: the recitation of the Apostles’ Creed. I used to recite the Creed, almost without thinking. Then, one day, I literally stopped in mid-sentence and thought, “this is supposed to be a statement of my beliefs and it is not.” So, I merely pause now and listen, out of respect for the tradition. I know Catholics who do not believe the bread and wine of the Eucharist is the actual body and blood, soul and divinity of Jesus Christ, as the RCC teaches, when they eat and drink it. They take communion “in remembrance” of Jesus, as most Protestants do, and yet, they love the Church and have no intention of leaving it, nor do I think they should. In the final analysis, it is the spirit and not the letter that counts. -Ed
This is EXACTLY the stuff I'm wrestling with, folks. Man, it's good to read.
Interestingly, for various practical reasons, we're doing the same thing Fredl is. We're attending a UU church (when it's obvious that politics aren't going to be the subject of the day) without being members. Long term, we wont' be there. "Can't" be there, I should say, at least not in good conscience.
The problem with going liberal Presby. or Episcopalian is that darn Apostles' Creed: I just don't believe it. I'd like to believe it in a way as it would in a way make life easier. But if I don't believe it, how could I call myself a liberal Presby. or Episcopalian?
Anyway, I'm glad I found this forum, folks--
Will